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	Euroq2l #18 IRC: #euroq2l \| GTV: skuller.net / gtv.digitalfrag.net Sign ups: off Transfers: no Players limit: 20 User's clans: on

Match: [HBQ] vs [Wizard]

» Summary « » Description « » Comments « » New comment «

Summary

Harry Boy Quakers vs Wizards
Type:	Play-offs
Referee:	Spam
Date:	2007-12-09 15:00
Score:	0:3
Frags:	351:451
Maps:	q2dm2, q2dm1, q2dm6
Scores:	120:136, 121:176, 110:139
Demos:	———

Description

wision:
after discussions with the other admins, we decided to remove the warnings given to thaigo and provi because the rules about demo recording and publishing aren't perfectly clear (yet). we still would like thaigo to pay more attention to the league and its spectators by publishing his demos when asked to

Comments

Cheimera	2007-12-13 18:31
	arch by removing the warnings he admitted to his mistake right? why should he else remove them?
arch^	2007-12-13 17:59
	I didn't see wision admitting he made mistake, cheimera. And afaik he didn't! And I don't wanna start a discussion. Just telling, removing warnings doesn't mean it's cause it was a mistake May be just to keep some players satisfied ^^
TheWretch	2007-12-13 17:32
	manu: sarcasm can be hard to get through on da intarweb, but seeing that I used CAPS, seven exclamation marks and two smileys... I think you should get the idea, no? Edited: 2007-12-13 17:35
manu`	2007-12-13 16:57
	i agree with thaigo that it should be his decision whether to share or not to share a demo. but that's all. talking about copyrighted demos?!? please stop that nonsense. yes, it is completely nonsense to say a demo is "copyrighted". i think most of you don't even know what "copyright" means... . TheWrtech wrote: My (and Revo's?) conclusion = NAZIADMIN!!!!!!! Personally i think for that stupid, totally out of brain, bad and insulting words he should get a warning! Finally all the same as in other seasons... everything went smooth and well but if an admin "adminned" the whole scene hyperventilates and challenges the league system with its rules. Sure it's not nice to put other players demos up to ds but it shouldn't be the reason for this whole thing here...
Cheimera	2007-12-13 16:10
	Thaigo and Provis warnings removed, nice work, and respect to admins to admit they made a wrong descision about the warnings. Lets see what happens next year about the publishing rule etc, all up to admins i guess. peace love and understanding Edited: 2007-12-13 16:53
resor	2007-12-13 14:33
	Back to the topic. Imagine great final without best player pov demo. My opinion: EVERY player should record a demos and send them to admin's mailbox(or any onter way). It's souch a easy when in these days almost every mailbox has unlimited space. Admin should choose demos wich would be good to watch. Every admin should be forced to upload those demos. Compare to UEFA Champions League: no spectactors, no money. They couldn't ever do souch a big turnament without money ofcours. But spectactors are money itself. I dont mean that we would pay for anything we watch (even for newest hollywood movies). League without a demos are ordinary league between friends... nothing else, nothing to watch and nobody cares. Demos improove prestigue of the league. Without demos all that you play for(awards, good name)loosing sense. In the future even semi skilled players(who learn a lot from demos top world players) may not recognize you thaigo. You may become only a NICK without history... P.S. I remember how plays Tresh, Immortal, Kuin, Shub, Ross... and i never meet those guys on server.
Spam	2007-12-13 07:17
	If i was reading correct yesterday the finalgame wont be played this week, but on WED or THURS next week i think foen/pogo said. Edited: 2007-12-13 08:33
Jou	2007-12-13 07:12
	TheWretch, nicely broken pattern there. I also want to know when the match is played, hope on sunday though. And hope Mobius has the GTV cuz on his server some 100 people can join up. Nothing against you mg (nice previous work) but the max 18 ppl is too little for such a big grande final.
TheWretch	2007-12-13 05:40
	Sooo, the big question is; when is the final going to be played?
arch^	2007-12-13 02:33
	No zdufs he didn't. He told me and everyone else who listens that it was clear to thg that he wouldn't publish the demos. So don't talk crap zdufs :/ Edited: 2007-12-13 02:34
zdufs	2007-12-12 17:37
	lol arch it is about publishing even wision admited ...
arch^	2007-12-12 16:53
	Cheimera, yeh I know that's a bit where it got to, the publishing. It's not what it all started though. Wision gets attacked for giving a warning to thg, for refusing to send demos. That's what also went on in this thread. Yeh and some guys just go on about publishing, like you cheimera. But it's a totally different topic. And it shouldn't be here. So, yeh some guys here are talking about changing a rule or smth, imo. But wision got nothing to do with this at all. And some ppl still attack him, and others :p I am talking about those comments Cheimera. Edited: 2007-12-12 16:56
Cheimera	2007-12-12 16:34
	arch: You said its not about publishing demos? Have you even read the whole thread? I guess not. This is for an example what Spam wrote: "And that means me, pogo, wision and the rest admins can claim a demo from every player at any time we want. Next thing is that the rules doent say anything about that we cant add the demos to demosquad so we can do whatever we want with the demo." so drop out of the discussion arch if you havent followd it as you should before you speak up. Spam: Everybody respects the work admins put down on this league, absolutly. But that does not give you guys the rigth to pull out the i am an admin card, fuck off i can do whatever i want with this league etc... Only way to add a rule that splits the scene in the opinion if its good or bad, is a FAIR vote. Wision and all the other admins: Giving a warning is not a big thing? ofc its a big thing, its as big thing as if you would get banned from the league, its still a punishment. Its a principle. resor: Just beacuse thaigo does not want to publish his demos it does not mean there wont be a single demo to watch. And there will be thaigo demos on ds for sure, but for god sake let the man upload them for himself. QUAKE 2 WILL NOT DIE WITHOUT FUCKING DEMOS FFS! and there will always be good players uploading demos so who gives a shit if 1 or 2 dont upload, their fucking descision respect that.
resor	2007-12-12 15:38
	I just want to add somethning from me. I'am a spectactor for sure. My skill dies long time a go and playing from time to time only for fun. But anyway I clearly know what's it's all about in that game. Real pleasure for me is watching demos, and sometimes i even join a Q2TV servers to watch some games. I just wonder do I brake law (or any rule) when i record demo from any pov i like to. TPP demos ofcourse are not so anjoyable as player pov demos, but they may show tactics as well as pov demos can. Imagine q2 scene (EuroQ2L) without demos. If every player in league could refuse to public he's demo, and everyone of them would do it.... what's that league for then? only for best players in the world who want to show their skills betwen each other? In these days nobody from best players want to play with me. It's a waste of time for them. So that means that you dont want to show your skill (and tactics) for people with you play with... those who are the best. Rules are not clear enough, and i hope admins will change it.
dud4	2007-12-12 14:04
	ok man , i've just wrote down my opinion about this discussion. (i agree with thaigo's last comment absolutely) For me it's just a bit bad , when i see 100+ comments threads on this site Only when smth "bad" happens , or smth "mouse" what become an elephant:F peace
arch^	2007-12-12 13:42
	Yes dud4, your 2nd line is right. But you are one of the people contributing to the elephant, not spam, not wision, YOU! OK? And me now :p And you just pulled an otpek with your first line.
dud4	2007-12-12 13:02
	hell yea arch , i made a 20 page discussion about just a "warning" right : that what i called makin elephant : when a guy make a little mistake(or not) and it starts a pointless discussion like this. Edited: 2007-12-12 13:08
arch^	2007-12-12 11:05
	dud4, aren't you the one making an elephtant out of a mouse? He got a WARNING. You call this an elephant? Buy some glasses then. If he would have been kicked or banned, I would agree with you. And yes, thg did break the rules. Anyway! (16:32:39) (@wision) i was the one who asked you and i was also the one who told you that i will NOT upload them (16:32:48) (@wision) why the hell you keep this "discussion" ? (16:33:00) (@wision) you got warning, it's according the rules, EOD You all talk about publishing demos. But thg got a warning for refusing to send demos to wision. It's not FUCKING ABOUT PUBLISHING, IGNORANT IDIOTS. Btw the comma in the previous sentence alters the meaning of the sentence. Ok, that's how I see all this Sorry for too agressive writing :'( Edited: 2007-12-12 11:10
careem	2007-12-12 10:09
	duco dont waste time here and come play some quake! =]
thaigo	2007-12-12 10:04
	And to be even more clear enough: I have no problem with sending demos to admins NOW if they wont publish em outside the admin crew. I think this discussion has gone to a such point, where Wision and other admins are not man enough to admit that giving a warning to me and provi was just wrong and over reaction. Edited: 2007-12-12 10:17
dud4	2007-12-12 09:41
	SpamE it's just so strange how you guys makin elephant from a mouse. I belive Thaigo still got thoose demos , and he will show them to ADMINS at the end of season if that is so necessary to you. But i think there's nobody who alloved to force him to upload his demos to DS. That must be his own decision to publish it or not. In fact he didn't break the rules , so this warning is just zzzz just like the whole discussion. And yea a discussion like this is surely goes for the scene. I respect your admin work man , but this felt a bit a pointless niggling for me. Edited: 2007-12-12 09:47
duco	2007-12-12 09:31
	At least 5 people think different about demo's being published,. I also think admins should not be allowed to publish demo's without permission. Jakkari wrote: "Even if admins "can do whatever he want with the demo he claimed".. dont you guys have any respect other peoples wishes.. " Cheimera wrote: "Gravgon wrote some really good stuff there imo, but i still think its up to thaigo himself if he wants to be an respectuous player who shares his demos, not the admins job to descide who he is gonna be." "i dont like to publish demos either, so publishing demos is not an admins rigth and. " TheWretch wrote: "I'm with thaigo on this. If he doesn't want to publish his demos, he shouldn't have to." Slippi wrote: "Spam yeah that's is true and those are the rules BUT i would add: 8.3c : Admins CAN'T publish demos without the permission of the owner." Optimizer wrote: "i agree with thaigo here, I really dislike to get my demos published on demosites when sending those on request by admins. If i want it there, i will add it.."
duco	2007-12-12 08:55
	This discussion is missing the point and going nowhere.On this point i aggree with Thaigo, Cheimera, Jakkari Respect a player's decision if he doesn't want his demo to be added to any public site. Thaigo wrote: "Duco, there are demos in demosquad, which have been added by some other than me, but I have asked at least Ph and Kicia to add some. There are also demos, which I have not requested to upload and yes that is bad manners." On demosquad, some [Wizard]Thaigo demo's 1. Wizards vs. Tok= Added: Pogo 2. Wizards vs sYnth= Added: eXecutor 3. wizards vs play> =Added: [OK]ph Only PH and Kicia asked permission. This motivates Thaigo's decision not to share his demo's, people don't respect him and his decision. Calling people that don't share demo's 'no good manners' 'ruining q2scene' etc don't have too much respect. For example: i won't share my girlfriend, even if she aggrees :-)
TheWretch	2007-12-12 08:48
	And I just pointed out that you don't have to apply for copyright as some people seems to think. That was what I meant by "it just appears automagically".
Spam	2007-12-12 08:44
	dude4... Its not so strange that wision wrote it since hes the head admin for this league. Atm we are 2 (wision + me) + 0,5 (pogo) + 0,5 (foen) active admins that wanna do something for the q2scene. So you mean we shouldnt do what we think is right? we shouldnt maybe be admins at all?, better to not have a league?.. plz think befor you wright.
Pogo	2007-12-12 07:27
	Yes it sure is a sidenote(and a quite ridiculous one at that), but since you took the time to write a point about it i felt obligated to reply so people won't actually believe that everything they do will magically be copyrighted Edited: 2007-12-12 07:28
TheWretch	2007-12-12 06:17
	The "threshold of originality" is fairly open to interpretation. I would never call a blue square on a piece of fabric or maybe me recording a tune playing the ukelele reaching the "threshold of originality". Yet, it still does. The demo case has not been tested and never will (or did wision find that article?), so it is as I said earlier JUST A SIDE NOTE in this discussion.
nocri	2007-12-12 02:28
	the purpose of what i wrote wasnt to make a direct compare with football but to show the idea of THE LEAGUE. i could replace word football with any other type of sport, or even e-sport. league is league.
dud4	2007-12-12 02:26
	Comparing a 10 years old game to IRL games where ppl earn money , and millions watching it worldwide.. pff lol. Btw strange that : this is the 3 rd year in a row , when there are 20 pages bla bla after HBQ's last league match. I know this is not about them (but wision started this warning who is actually member if i know well..) , but strange for sure. Btw looked GG , and the first 5-10 comment should be only in this thread.
Cheimera	2007-12-12 00:37
	yeeh pogo comparing football and quake2 is a damn joke, thats why i explained why it can NOT be compared at all! And the comparing with the tactic book etc that i wrote, was becuase people seems to have issues about thaigo saying that the reason he does not share his demo is beacuse he wants to keep his tactics secret and not for the public eyes. So that was ALL about the tactic issue. Everything else i wrote about why you cant compare Quake2 and and football, should be really clear for all the ones kneading about it. In any matter you people try to discribe why the demos should be public property makes you really seem stupid ignorant and in certain ways almost in big words dictatiorous (from the word dictator) not sure i bend it rigth though. Lets hope you get the point anyway. And for me its complete madness to even THINK that the demos faith lies in the hands of the admins? WTF?. And for me i am so persistant about my opinion in this case that there is absolutly nothing that could make me think otherwise. This is the part where i am really ignorant, even though i have really tryed to understand and read about other peoples opinions in this matter, i just cant get it.
Pogo	2007-12-11 21:29
	Cheimera: First you complain about comparing q2 to football, and in the next sentence you are comparing demos to seeing a coaches tactic book. That comparison is a damn joke and in this case would be more equal to demanding the pass to a clans priv channel. Tactics should obviously always be a private matter of the clans, but like in other sports or games, once you start playing league games you put those tactics to use and show them off. Once a league is started its up to the other teams to adapt to these tactics since they are then out in the open. I also gotta make a reply to TheWretch and his delusions about copyright. In Sweden at least, NOT everything you create gets automatically copyrighted. In order for that to happen the work in question has to reach a certain "threshold of originality" (swe: "Verkshöjd" ), which i'm fairly sure q2 demos aren't anywhere close to. Edited: 2007-12-11 21:30
Cheimera	2007-12-11 20:11
	nocri: ffs man, you do the same thing as optek did, comparing Quake 2 with UEFA champions league?? Those players write contracts where it says litterally that they will be on tv etc and must do a certain amount of intervjus etc etc. And i know alot about professional football contracts and all that surrounds it, since i have a brother that is a top player and a lot of friends who plays in top clubs in europe, so believe me when i say its NOT the same thing as an Quake 2 league. And if you now must compare these two things so answer me to this: Are you allowed to just run in to for an example Ajax training if its not an open training wich is up to the manager to descide if its gonna be or not. Are you allowd to say, HEI! sir alex ferguson, may i have a look in that black book you have with all your tactics and notes? Not even UEFA chair men can make him give a away that and ABSOLUTLY not publish it for the press. So that about thaigos tactics, if he has secret tactics and game styles, let him have it for himself who are you to claim those things. Do you see where this is going? So enough of comparing this situtation of quake2 demos with other leagues and cup that exist. This is about eq2l and nothing else so keep it that way. Edited: 2007-12-11 20:17
nocri	2007-12-11 19:43
	cant see the point in the discussion. league has it own rules - leagues are for public. can u imagine champions league without tv coverege ? and i have never seen any footballer protesting against showing his game on tv (that someone could see his special tactic) + the one who organises the league gets all the profits from that (the league matches are owned by league organiser not the player who plays it) - and just devide them between competiting teams.
dud4	2007-12-11 19:42
	Thaigo special tactics ftw. btw this thread shows only ppl have so much freetime. still no idea why admins wanna see thaigo's demos , if there's no reason to think about 'cheating.." Edited: 2007-12-11 19:43
floyd	2007-12-11 19:18
	Careem you have had absolutely nothing to add to this discussion so far. Keep those childish remarks for yourself man, wtf? quote duco: "So there will be 16 demo's from each match?" ...I'm talking about compulsory publishing only when requested of course.
gza	2007-12-11 19:16
	Problemo pros? Damiah still culture us with his aniversary point of view! Nice!
careem	2007-12-11 17:38
	optek you are a depressed jerk off!
otpek	2007-12-11 17:16
	its 10 years old game, with known top players. and div2, 3 players. semifinal of eq2l was played. some players watched it on q2tv, some weren't so lucky. therefore we have demos. no secrets in it, no cheats. just top skilled players doing what they do best. BUT, there are some top players who just have wrong attitude. this discussion has gone too far. i had some chat on irc with thaigo about this. i apologize if i was over the line. you can keep your demos, thaigo.... we are now expecting what imo, is best 4on4 game that this scene had chance to see. gl and hf Edited: 2007-12-11 17:17
Gravgon	2007-12-11 15:42
	TheWretch: wrong, copyright doesn't apply to demos (yet? I hope not ). I just wanted to correct that.
TheWretch	2007-12-11 12:12
	Pogo: ofc it would be nice if everyone would just publish their demos, then you would have total freedom to watch whatever you want or not want. Now, not everyone wants to share their demos and that is imho something you have to respect, especially when there are no rules against it. The game has been going 10 years and won't live/die with thaigos secret demos if that is what you ultimately mean with "stop caring about the league". I much rather have two top players like provi and thaigo (and clans like Wizards) in euroq2l #9 than a rule about publishing demos. High level competition is #1, demos #2. otpek: Care to point out why I'm so dead wrong instead of just posting a nonsense message?
TheWretch	2007-12-11 12:12
	Ok, will try to post this shit again now... First, copyright issues: Why could there not be copyright on a demo? The concept is similiar to when you make a song and music is strictly copyrighted, ask RIAA. Copyright is btw not something you have to do, it just appears automagically. (You don't have to put that stupid (c) if that is what you are missing in your downloaded demos Spam and Gravgon.) The copyright is just a sidenote in this matter though, so why bother. I can bet my demo-collection that thaigo or anyone else won't go to court with this... Spam: What's new about these warnings are that there clearly are no rules broken. I interpret "in case of cheat investigations" = if under cheat investigations, which thaigo isn't. And the comma doesn't change the meaning of that sentence. Read what Gravgon wrote "2007-12-11 10:51". I can't really see how you could interpret it in another way then this. Again: It is under the Cheat-topic and it doesn't say shit about publishing demos.
thaigo	2007-12-11 10:50
	Gravgon, common sense right, but u obviously seem to miss that part. And to be clear enough: I have no problem with sending demos to admins if they wont publish em outside the admin crew.
Gravgon	2007-12-11 10:41
	Which right? The right of God? Because there isn't any law that gives you that right. That's my point. At best you can ask for that demo to be kolted from DS.
thaigo	2007-12-11 10:26
	Gravgon, since u fail to understand, I'll write it again. If I send my demo to Spam, does that make it his demo? I think not. It's still my demo and not Spams demo. And since it's still my demo, I got the right to choose if I share it or not.
Gravgon	2007-12-11 10:07
	Are you talking about your "bad manner" comment or your failed attempt at humour comment? I was replying to Revo here who don't seem to understand, like many others, the difference between legal but not friendly and illegal.
kolt	2007-12-11 10:05
	thaigo's super dm1-dm8 tactics :O
thaigo	2007-12-11 10:02
	Gravgon, did u even read what I wrote last time?
Gravgon	2007-12-11 09:57
	Revo: it's against the law if your song is copyrighted. You cannot copyright a demo so, once again, if someone uploads a demo of a player without his permission, it's just uncool. There is no law against uncool people otherwise thaigo wouldn't be able to play in the first place...
duco	2007-12-11 09:44
	Thaigo wrote: "There are also demos, which I have not requested to upload and yes that is bad manners." Thaigo's demo's where he played for wizards we're added by Kicia, PH, Pogo & Gerdt all admins. PH and Kicia asked permission. Some other admins didn't. Floyd wrote: "Furthermore I must say I agree with pretty much everything Pogo said so far. He is one intelligent guy." 1. Wizards vs. Tok= Added: Pogo 2. Wizards vs sYnth= Added: eXecutor 3. wizards vs play> =Added: [OK]ph Only PH and Kicia asked permission. Floyd wrote: "...a poll about compulsory publishing of demos would be good." -So there will be 16 demo's from each match? Or this rule goes only for div1 players? You can't say like Spam does, everyone must record demo's but only thaigo MUST sent them to me for publication so thaigo's secret tactics&skills will keep our q2scene alive!
Revo_	2007-12-11 09:44
	Spam "If an admin wants to add a demo to demosquad he can do it. I didnt say its the admins job, i just said that admins can do whaever he want with the demo he claimed." So if I compose a song and send it to you cause I want you to listen to it, then you're having all the rights to upload it at a public page? It might not be against the euroq2l-rules but it's against the law, and believe it or not, LAW > EUROQ2L-RULES!
thaigo	2007-12-11 09:28
	http://euroq2l.googlepages.com/admins.jpg
floyd	2007-12-11 08:57
	Cheimera: sorry I didn't know you were kidding there. Furthermore I must say I agree with pretty much everything Pogo said so far. He is one intelligent guy. I think it comes down to this: thaigo and others interpreted the "giving away demos"-rule in another way than the admin-crew. The rule should be clarified for the future, and maybe a poll about compulsory publishing of demos would be good. I for one watch a whole lot of demos, and really enjoy it too, but I think compulsory sharing is a bridge too far. I would love to see all demos published, but it's just a bit too much asked of the players. Maybe publishing demos should be encouraged instead of made compulsory?
Gerdt	2007-12-11 07:20
	http://q2nc.free.fr/dscard.jpg
thaigo	2007-12-11 07:11
	If I send my demo to Spam, does that make it his demo? I think not. It's still my demo and not Spams demo. And since it's still my demo, I got the right to choose if I share it or not. Duco, there are demos in demosquad, which have been added by some other than me, but I have asked at least Ph and Kicia to add some. There are also demos, which I have not requested to upload and yes that is bad manners. Edited: 2007-12-11 07:13
TheWretch	2007-12-11 07:10
	omg, I've just spent 15min on an answer and nothing happened when I pressed add
jakkari	2007-12-11 06:46
	Even if admins "can do whatever he want with the demo he claimed".. dont you guys have any respect other peoples wishes.. Gravgon wrote: "The thing is that wision didn't request thaigo's demo for a cheat investigation or whatever and we're all aware of that. He requested them to publish them. That WOULD be lame to do it using the rule I quoted because it's not the purpose of that rule." That IS really lame.
Cheimera	2007-12-11 06:40
	good ice breaker
careem	2007-12-11 06:25
	(c) by Nace: Bubkez is now known as Jerry Seinfeld HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA sorry for offtopic =>>>
duco	2007-12-11 06:19
	-Most of provi demo's are added to demosquad by provi himself. Thaigo's demo's where he played for wizards we're added by Kicia, PH, Pogo & Gerdt all admins. I wonder if they all asked for permission to do this, furthermore i can imagine thaigo bad experiences. "i just said that admins can do whaever he want with the demo he claimed." This is very wrong. Let's respect other peoples wishes NOT to publish. And ask other top-players to publish like Provi and don't ask it from thaigo just because you want to upset him.
Cheimera	2007-12-11 06:18
	and spam, where in the rules does it say "an admin can do whatever he wants with an claimed demo" ?? just becuase it does NOT say "an admin CAN NOT do whatever he wants with an claimed demo" we have to assume its the opposit? come on give me a break now, thats not rigth
Spam	2007-12-11 06:08
	Duco, who said that? If an admin wants to add a demo to demosquad he can do it. I didnt say its the admins job, i just said that admins can do whaever he want with the demo he claimed.
Cheimera	2007-12-11 05:36
	But still as i wrote before, the rules say admins can claim the demos, does not say anything about full rigths to publish them also. so until there is a new rule that says something like: admins have full rigths of the demos that are played in this cup and can claim them at any time from any match played and has the rigth to publish them it would be obvious that its up to the player t publish or not publish
Gravgon	2007-12-11 05:33
	Sorry duco but you're talking out of your ass. Stop referring to legal/rules/violating because the only copyrighted thing in a demo is Quake2 and since you need to have Quake2 installed to watch a demo, there's absolutely nothing illegal to distribute/publish/do whatever you want with a demo. This is just a problem of having good manners here. It's not really cool to publish someone's demo without his permission but it's also not very cool to never upload your demos when you're a top player. See, it's just a matter of cool/uncool, not legel/illegal Edited: 2007-12-11 05:41
duco	2007-12-11 05:28
	Spam.. it's not an admins job to add demo's to demosquad. If Thaigo want his demo to be posted on DS.. he will post them there himself. Downloading demo's that are posted on DS is not violating copyright rules. But publishing and distributing a demo, something that isn't your original property is violating these rules. You won't like that if i ask for a picture of you and your girlfriend (or boyfriend) that i publish it on several sites right? Because it's your picture! You should watch thaigo's demo yourself, but not share it. Edited: 2007-12-11 05:31
Spam	2007-12-11 05:25
	Duco, i have never seen any copyrighted demo in my entire life and i have dowloaded many from ds and other demos places.. Ofc if thaigo copyrighted his demos we cant add them, but even if they are copywrited we can claim them since its a rule. If he and others dont wanna send their copyrighted demos they shouldnt sign to the league. About that we havent asked for zorres or any others players from the semifinal pogo answer quite well a bit down, its the admins who decides what demos we wanna have and since HBQ lost all the maps its not so exiting to see the game from loosers pov, but ofc if u wanna see demos from them im sure i kan fix them. Why my demos isnt on demosquad.. its simple, i suck to much and there have never been any admins asking for my demos.. Edited: 2007-12-11 05:27
Gravgon	2007-12-11 05:24
	Can you provide us with the legal text stating that demos are copyrighted duco? Even better, can you provide us with the international convention (yeah since for instance demosquad is hosted in Poland but the demos are from people residing in other countries, Q2 is a game created by an american company, etc.) that backs up what you said? I don't think so
duco	2007-12-11 05:15
	Spam: "next thing is that the rules doent say anything about that we cant add the demos to demosquad so we can do whatever we want with the demo." Demo's are copyrighted material. You are never allowed to publish anything without permission of the rightfull owner. Furthermore Rule 8 of rules is called 8. CHEATING AND ANTI-CHEATING -So the purpose of demo's is to prevent cheating Spam can you answer this question? 1. Did Slippi, Jakkari, Slonken, Zorre, Gerdt and Arch give all their demo's of 3 maps to admins? 2. Can You upload ALL of this 18 demo's to demosquad please? Furthermore publication is an owners RIGHT, purri, damiah and other post their demo's, some others don't. Just respect their decision. "And Thaigo's demo would keep q2 scene alive is nonsense" There are more than enough other good demo's you can watch (other purri, provi, damiah demo's)
Cheimera	2007-12-11 05:04
	Gravgon wrote some really good stuff there imo, but i still think its up to thaigo himself if he wants to be an respectuous player who shares his demos, not the admins job to descide who he is gonna be. Edited: 2007-12-11 05:05
Gravgon	2007-12-11 04:51
	To clarify things a bit, that rule was written when there were no working anticheat systems. So the only way we could, somehow, keep things under control was this rule. Now there is r1q2 which is _supposed_ to free q2 from all the evil cheat so this rule appears a bit useless to you. But imo it's still very necessary... Remember how we busted Scooby when he faked as his brother in a match? r1q2 can't detect such things So this was to explain in which way this rule isn't bullshit... Which means that, by the rules, all players are still supposed to record every game they play. That rule would be bullshit _indeed_ if admins couldn't REQUEST those demos. The thing is that wision didn't request thaigo's demo for a cheat investigation or whatever and we're all aware of that. He requested them to publish them. That WOULD be lame to do it using the rule I quoted because it's not the purpose of that rule. Players shouldn't be forced to PUBLISH their demos (although nothing prevents a filthy admin to request a demo and then upload it on DS, demos aren't copyrighted afaik). But Wision didn't motivate his decision by that rule and if the warning is justified, imo, it's when it's used in application of this rule: 1.4 Any behaviour taken by a player to intentionally harm the good happening of the league or one of its match can be punished with a sanction ranging from the warning to the definitive exclusion of the league. I mean, the dude never gives away any of his demo. As a top player it's not a very smart nor respectuous behaviour towards the league. As Pogo said, there is an important "spectator" side of a league. Not only in Q2 but in all sports. If a top player constantly refuses to share his demo, imo it harms the good happening of the league.
Cheimera	2007-12-11 04:31
	Pogo: that was a joke, thats not the reason, the reason is what i wrote below. For god sake there is enough demo uploaders out there, let them and all of them thats has no problem uploading and showing off their demos do it, But dont make it a rule! That wrong no matter what you come up with.
Pogo	2007-12-11 04:16
	thaigo and Cheimera: Obviously we aren't trying to get every demo from every single pov uploaded, but for the semifinals there should be at least demos from one of the better players of the winning team. Agreed this should have been done for the quarterfinals aswell and im sorry it wasn't. Cheimera: It's kinda hard to keep a discussion going when you state your reason for not wanting to upload demos as "i am an asshole" And yes, the reason does matter imo as the ability for people to actually see the games is more important to me than your right of beeing an asshole. TheWretch: "Only reason I see to publish a demo against ones will is to shows the scene that the player is cheating." So you see no problem at all with screenshots only for playoff games? People will eventually just stop caring about the league if this keep up imo. thaigo: I'd agree on a poll or something since your view has gotten alot more support than i expected it to in the comments. I don't understand it at all but if thats what the majority really wants then by all means, lets keep watching the thrilling screenshots...
Cheimera	2007-12-11 03:38
	otpek: Cheimera: spam some more, not like this is one important issue for scene.do i need to explain word smartass? You dont even confront me with what i have written, wich means you dont know shit what to say so all you can come up with is "smartass"? otpek all this is called DISCUSSION so write something thats has to do with the subject, like you opinion about all this or whatever you have on your mind and i will surely read it, but shit as i "spam" and think i am a smartass is just bullshit. Only reason i am writing here is cause this does not only conserne the warned players but the rest of the scene also in future. Spam: WHAT do you need our demo for? if ofc we wouldent be under "cheat investigation"? That admins can claim your demo and "do whatever they want with it" is not really objective is it? So no need to send a demo to an admin if the player is not under cheat investigation? Here we go LOGICAL thinking. And ye for sure, i will not play next season if it goes so far that admins can claim my demos and do whatever they want with it. Doesent make any sense at all.
arch^	2007-12-11 03:12
	DS will be fucked for 3 more years anyway, and everyone will forget about this.
Spam	2007-12-11 02:44
	tw and more, think about the , (comma) in this rule: 8.3b If a player can't provide a demo when being asked by an admin, this can be interpreted against him in case of cheat investigations. It doesnt have anything to do with cheating, but if the player in question doesnt provide with the demo it can start a cheat investigation. Simple is that. If you look above that in rules selection is says: 8.3a Admins may ask for those demos at any time And that means me, pogo, wision and the rest admins can claim a demo from every player at any time we want. Next thing is that the rules doent say anything about that we cant add the demos to demosquad so we can do whatever we want with the demo. If players as thigo, optimizer, cheimera doesnt wanna share their demos they shouldnt play in the league. Simple is that About the warnings, admins for the past 5 (what i know of) years (foen, gravgon, ohyeah, ph and so on) have used warnings for players who havent followed the rules so its nothing new. Edited: 2007-12-11 03:03
otpek	2007-12-11 02:41
	Cheimera: spam some more, not like this is one important issue for scene.do i need to explain word smartass? TheWretch: you are wrong on so many levels, but that is what happens when ppl write without thinking. thaigo:yes, you are one very stubborn person. and, after 10 years of q2, that attitude is just funny. holding to few words of admin that were careless said, like a man to a rescue boat....
TheWretch	2007-12-11 01:42
	One more... Spam: Revo's answer may not be in the best attitude but based on these things, I think he have a point; -It says nowhere in the rules that you have to publish your demos to other ppl than admins. -The rule all other admins refer to is under the Cheating-topic and thaigo isn't accused. -"I will NOT justify my decision.." -wision My (and Revo's?) conclusion = NAZIADMIN!!!!!!! Edited: 2007-12-11 01:43
Cheimera	2007-12-11 00:13
	As thaigo wrote, were are the other players demos from this match? All this talk about its the best for scene to be able to look at div1 demos blabla fucking bla, is bullshit. you only use that to have something to argue with, your weapon. If the case would be as you say, then we would see all the other players demos uploaded at the moment, right??
Cheimera	2007-12-11 00:07
	ill never ever gonna give away a demo unless i am not "under cheat investigation". Thats for sure. Ill rather not play in the league at all. If the case is that next year admis can require my demos just because and then also have the power to publish them to the public? And what would my reason be to NOT publish my demos? answer: cause i am an asshole, as simple as that. and probably because i never check others demos either. Dont see demos as hobby, just some shitty files taking space on my harddrive. Everymans rigth to keep their demos to themself! Braveheart style figth for freedom
thaigo	2007-12-11 00:04
	[21:06] <thaigo> rules about demos have been the same for a long time [21:07] <wision> and it has been wrong for long time [21:07] <thaigo> ppl havent been able to justify demopublishing back then [21:07] <wision> all admins agree with that [21:07] <thaigo> why would it be different now [21:07] <thaigo> so what [21:07] <thaigo> its still the same [21:07] <thaigo> wrong or right Pogo, About changing rules for next season, I think u realize that there needs to be a vote about changing the rules to force demopublishing ( that's what youre after right? ). Btw. Where are demos from ALL the other players? Edited: 2007-12-11 00:06
TheWretch	2007-12-10 23:19
	I'm with thaigo on this. If he doesn't want to publish his demos, he shouldn't have to. I think you are wrong Pogo. The rule about sending demos is clearly there for "cheat-investigation". It's even under the topic "8. CHEATING AND ANTI-CHEATING" and nowhere does it say that sharing demos with the community is forced, only sharing to admins are mentioned. Only reason I see to publish a demo against ones will is to shows the scene that the player is cheating. But then he would be a dumbass for sending it to the admin in the first place :E Since this is not the case ("And both Pogo and Wision agreed that im not under cheat investigation." ), there is no reason to publish the demo against thaigos will. Isn't the league for "competing" first and foremost? The reason these games are interresting is because of the high level competition, it's not the other way around. If there happens to be some good demos because of this competition, that's great. If not, too bad. I can't find anything in the rules that justifies the warning(s?) given. The only punishment mentioned is "bad karma" in cheat investigations. And if this isn't even an cheat investigation, where the bleep does the warning(s?) come from? "I will NOT justify my decision.." That is a great attitude from an admin I must say... Finally; Don't you think making Wizards games W/O:s would damage the scene more then thaigos secretly kept demos? Edited: 2007-12-11 01:32
Pogo	2007-12-10 22:19
	thaigo your #2 point is completely wrong and something you made up to support your case with. Actually the rules say nothing at all about the reasons why demos must be sent or what the admins can do with them, only that the players are required to send demos to admins when asked to. In the next paragraph the rules do say that failiure to do so might be used against that player in a cheat investigation, but that is just one of many uses(another one is uploading so people can see nice games). Since cheat accusations are few and far between in q2 these days that rule is there so greedy people who refuse to share their demos like everyone else shouldn't be able to refuse. If there are no demos of the games, who is the league for? Only the temporary enjoyment of the playing clans? The few specs that manage to squeeze in on the server? Imo thats just extremely bad manners both to the other players who do send their demos when asked (99% do) and especially the people who are not playing in div1 themselves but enjoy following the league anyway. But no worries, i'm sure we'll clarify the rules even more next season so we won't have this discussion again. Edited: 2007-12-10 22:19
Blaizz	2007-12-10 18:40
	sad.. all games in div1 quarter- and semi- finals were played and still no demos from any team. Hope the main reason of this - troubles with site, approving etc. tbh never understood that hiding demos, especially demos of such important epic games which are worth for watching and being remembered @ q2scene. ggs
Cheimera	2007-12-10 17:47
	1-0 to slippi and i dont even think that must be written in the rules, its should be obvious Edited: 2007-12-10 17:49
slippi	2007-12-10 17:44
	Spam yeah that's is true and those are the rules BUT i would add: 8.3c : Admins CAN'T publish demos without the permission of the owner. As simple as that, case closed EDIT: and don't get me wrong, because i appreciate all admins, who make leagues like this possible with their hard work. But i just can't understand what is the problem with this case. Edited: 2007-12-10 17:55
MoBy	2007-12-10 17:43
	i want arch demo on that first dm1 i think next step of thg is asking money for is demos... be carefull AHaH
Cheimera	2007-12-10 17:37
	but spam, so the reason why thg dident want to give away his demo has no meaning at all?
Spam	2007-12-10 17:27
	nice moron comment by an eq2l admin as revo... what dont u understand of the rules you of any1 should understand: 8.3 All players MUST record demos from every map and keep them until the end of the league! 8.3a Admins may ask for those demos at any time. 8.3b If a player can't provide a demo when being asked by an admin, this can be interpreted against him in case of cheat investigations. Edited: 2007-12-10 17:29
Ra.	2007-12-10 17:03
	I think the best way out of this is to remove the warnings, and adjust the rules to next season to avoid situations like this.
Cheimera	2007-12-10 17:00
	haha
Revo_	2007-12-10 16:55
	lets delete the "rules"-section and let wision do all decissions about them instead
Cheimera	2007-12-10 16:09
	floyd, that was a joke about bubkez, you know an inside joke between two swedish guys. So ffs get some humor or die? jeesus.... And yeh otpek may be rigth, bu so what? Still its your demo an you and only you should descide if its gonna be published or not. simple as that. Giving a way an warning or even bann or somekind of punish should only be made if its 100% sure this guy has broken a rule that is worth punishing for. and i gotta tell i am kind of confused here what EXACTLY did thg and provi got punished for? not giving a way demo? yeh cause admin SAID he/they are gonna punblish it. So i wouldent either give a way my demo.
floyd	2007-12-10 15:59
	quote Cheimera: "or an show off guy like bubkez who adds a 20min demo if he does an air rocket in it." ...Oh please, don't be so cynical. Optek is right in a way, sharing great games and actions is one of the things that keep a community alive. So please don't go acting so cynical about BubkeZ, one of the guys who always does the coolest actions and has one of the most interesting playstyles. I'm more than happy that he is willing to share these demos with everyone!! quote thaigo: "For that he should be punished somehow...after all the league is for players, not for admins to toy around." ...I don't agree. I won't make a judgment about whether wision has made a good or a bad decision, but I don't believe an admin should be "punished" unless he really is out of line. Giving a warning to someone is not what I would call being out of line. Adminning is, was and will always be a doubtful job, because you get a lot of responsability, a lot of whining and very few cheers from the people you do it for. IF (!) indeed his decision was wrong, I'd say it's enough if he admits to it and removes the warning. Cut the admins some slack!! Oh, and, I do say my first comment on this game was pretty prophetic Edited: 2007-12-10 16:01
Cheimera	2007-12-10 15:40
	Gravgon: shy? absolutly not, just not my thing to be a "demo uploader" or an show off guy like bubkez who adds a 20min demo if he does an air rocket in it. Publishing demos should and MUST be the choice made by yourself NOT admins. If the rules are som other way then its time to change it cause i will never give my demos to an admin if the admins will publish them. For ehat i care, bann me from the league. I know i sound stubbard, not my fault, got finnish blood
Jou	2007-12-10 15:30
	Otpek you are clear enough, but I still feel that this "give me demos or your matches will be W/O" is pathetic. Duco said it, I really don't think Spam, Wision, Pogo and others watch the all players demos, but just because thaigo don't like to give his demo away before the final, he gets punished with some lame warning. If the rules state that players should post their demos after their last match in the league, then thaigo is following the rules. But by following the rules, he gets a warning for it. To keep the scene alive, ppl like damiah, purri, provi and thaigo should post their demos. But not if they don't want it - especially before their biggest match in the league - they want to FOLLOW THE RULES and keep those demos until the league is over. So I would say that this was VERY sad and bad admining. TY
lazi	2007-12-10 15:29
	ducio: other demos are available i believe
otpek	2007-12-10 15:21
	i will focus on this:"after all the league is for players, not for admins". what is keeping this scene together, among few other things? demos from best players there. you are thaigo one of them. but you are also one very stubborn person. its not about wision. its about q2, and this scene. i want to see your demos, and providers. same as im gonna watch purri's demos, and would like to see damiah's. demos, for keeping this game alive, and for the players who watch them!.i hope i was clear enough...
Thuggee	2007-12-10 14:01
	cuz they just need to whine about something
thaigo	2007-12-10 13:59
	After seeing other peoples comments about this matter, I think Wision is decoding rules in a wrong way and abusing his admin rights. For that he should be punished somehow...after all the league is for players, not for admins to toy around. Least Wision could do, in order to save leagues reputation, is to remove mine and provis warning.
duco	2007-12-10 13:20
	Did Slippi, Jakkari, Slonken, Zorre, Gerdt and Arch give all their demo's of 3 maps to admins? I really doubt Spam has got 18 demo's? So why ask ONLY provi and thaigo about it?
Offi	2007-12-10 13:05
	I totally agree with, Cheimera, opti and wst. Edited: 2007-12-10 13:06
wst2	2007-12-10 13:00
	gg ! and i cant see why thg get this warning either... sounds wierd
Nace	2007-12-10 11:53
	Bubkez is now known as Jerry Seinfeld
BubkeZ	2007-12-10 11:21
	I think thg is afraid of getting only two downloads, his mom and dad are his biggest fans )
floyd	2007-12-10 10:34
	Gravgon: I completely follow you and I would prefer all demos published too (of course), but I don't see why thaigo (or anyone else) should be forced to publish them? (I'm not talking about sending them to admins)
optimizer	2007-12-10 10:29
	i agree with thaigo here, I really dislike to get my demos published on demosites when sending those on request by admins. If i want it there, i will add it..
Gravgon	2007-12-10 10:29
	What's wrong with publishing your demos? Are you shy or something? If you're affraid that someone will steel your tactics, well guys like purri and damiah has been posting up the demos of every single of their games and they're still unmatched and the top so I don't think it's a problem.
optimizer	2007-12-10 10:27
	entertaining game :>
Cheimera	2007-12-10 09:25
	i dont like to publish demos either, so publishing demos is not an admins rigth and. But demos requested for admins use only i can understand. Even if its not a real cheat investigastion, just wants to check that everything was played the fair way so np.
thaigo	2007-12-10 05:52
	Gravgon, I'm just following the rules. And why I don't like to share my demos? That's the way it has always been for me and so far there is no rule or reason why I should change that.
Gravgon	2007-12-10 05:49
	An admin should just ask thaigo's top secret demos and upload them on DS already. Big fucking deal! lol
careem	2007-12-10 05:22
	ggs, buhehe, wizards > hbq as always gl in the finals
thaigo	2007-12-10 03:43
	Im more than happy to give my demos to ADMINS, as it says in the rules. However it doesn't say in the rules that demos have to be published. Even after I send my demo to an admin, I still think it's my demo and I have the right to choose if I want it to be published or not. 8.3 All players MUST record demos from every map and keep them until the end of the league! 8.3a Admins may ask for those demos at any time. 8.3b If a player can't provide a demo when being asked by an admin, this can be interpreted against him in case of cheat investigations. [02:56] <wision> okeeej thaigo.. if you didn't understand yet i will explain it to you [02:56] <wision> you don't have to send demos now [02:56] <wision> you have to send them after next match [02:56] <wision> after the season is over How can I be given a warning I dont need to send demos until the final is over? Other reasons why my demos don't need to be published: 1: 1.3 The spirit of the rules always prevail on the letter. Because I dont want opponent to see my tactics, I see it's my right not to upload my demos. This is for the spirit of the league. You wouldn't want to win by cheating? 2: Rules say that if im under a cheat inspection, then I would need to send demos for that, but imho when trying to find out if I cheat or not, there is no need to upload demos for public, but only for admins, because their opinion is the only opinion that matters. And both Pogo and Wision agreed that im not under cheat investigation. 3: [01:25] <wision> but admins don't care about your demos [01:45] <wision> i don't agree on anything.. i don't care abotu your demos [03:57] <wision> no i don't.. i think you have your right to keep your demos somehow [03:57] <wision> BUT [03:57] <wision> it's not my job to protect you I call this bad admining. Why is Wision giving me a warning even if he doesn't care? He says other admins want my demos, but so far none of the other admins have asked for my demo. Just ask if u want em and i'll explain my view for them also. I don't think everyone else who hasn't send a demo has been given a warning. Maybe I'll just ignore their request like others do and get away from this, just like others do...
Gerdt	2007-12-10 02:34
	gg wizards, you were the better team! gl in the finals
Hibru	2007-12-09 23:35

Nace	2007-12-09 18:58
	np
thaigo	2007-12-09 18:28

arch^	2007-12-09 18:10
	gg
floyd	2007-12-09 14:58
	demos!

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