raskal eeh, okej i get your point, but how the fuck are the most of the players gonna get that experience that players at your level that have been playing q2 since -98? They will never reach that level unless you guys stop playing and give them a couple of years to advance to the same experience level.
its not our fault (wizards,play,HBQ) that some ppl have limited brain capability and are totally stucked to their skill levels. its your job to get better, not ours to get worse.
my opinion with cleaner s0 should be in div1, without him they are div2 clan btw i think with cleaner and his wh(not pretty sure what he is using) every div2 could play in div1
brikete agree with you
omg of course Cleaner > raskal but he is div1 player, and alter rul nope belong in div2
Why are transfers allowed after sign ups anyway? Imo any change of squad list shouldn't be allowed after some clan sign up for the league... accept admin approves...
sovet, I wasn't talking about that example at all. The links you pasted are from a time when the CB Q2TDM Cup was already dead. No offence because I see you were the supervisor but nobody cared about CB any more around that time, you can clearly see it when you check the table... 14 clans.
I had a totally different clan in mind at a totally different time when I think you weren't around so you're gonna have to trust me on this especially considering it was just an example.
Second thing, I never said one man couldn't make a difference, you're mistaken with some other people's argument.
So, not only you don't discredit my example, but you actually reinforce it because it shows how a well established team with teamplay and team spirit can give a challenge to a collection of supposedly better players who just joined a clan for one season.
Last thing, we tried many times to change the layout both in EQ2L and in NDML too. At the end, we always came back to a classic group stage -> playoffs system. It's a classic for a reason: it's what works best.
PS: I still thank you for bringing up those match reports because apparently I had good scores so it makes me look good
Grav: I remember, Gerdt made a great difference being on the team when the finals were played. http://clanbase.ggl.com/gr/news_league.php?nid=240588&lid=2749 Without Gerdt, you almost lost to "nubs" http://clanbase.ggl.com/gr/news_league.php?nid=239845&lid=2749
So, this kinda discredits your argument about "one man can't make a difference".
The current rules, however, state nothing about not allowing div1 player to join div2 clan. It was the case at ClanBase, but due to a huge inactivity after two seasons, I did as an exception allow Gerdt, Spam and Stuff play for ECF in div2. So, speculating whether it should be allowed or not is just an assumption and should not be forced, since no rules define this act to be illegal (Grav knows it, he's a law dude).
For me, it's just a bit immoral to have a Polish Powerhouse man quad-sweeping in div2. I also disagree with Purri: adding Cleaner to a weaker lineup just makes this statement even clearer - one man makes huge difference.
What concerns Gravgon's argument about "there are clans that are too strong for div2, but too weak for div1". I have an opinion on that which, in my eyes, is a partial solution to the problem. Instead of making two divisions, we should make 2 big groups in one division. The playoff system, however, could be bi-divisional, i.e. top 6 advance to div1 playoffs and ranked 6-12 to div2 playoffs. That way all get a piece of action: div2 can try win div1 clans, the battle will be for strongest clans for a spot in playoffs div1; somewhat weaker in-between-division clans can try to fight for div1 playoff spot, mediocre and weaker clans can compete for div2 playoff,
cmon raskal rul alter_szu or nope r far behind cleaner when it comes to quad maps this guy is an one man army and is capable of winning by himself still its s0's choice - but i dont see cleaner staying there longer than 1season im pretty sure in next season there will be new polish powersquad with cleaner in it
Eon, raskal is indeed a top-player but don't exaggerate that. With Raskal Xeno had a good team to win dm1, but on the real tactical maps they failed againist teamplay clans like Maq and M.
Edwin wrote: rul, alter_szu and nope are playing in div2 too. No need to write down their names, none of them have ever won Euroq2l or played in POl national team. No need to compare amateurs to the real pro, with respect to all called players (nope/rul: good duellers, alter_szu i don't know)
Gravgon wrote: It's always been like that even in the time of Clanbase, there was always a merc clan created just for one season. I totally aggree on you with this 1 since every season a lot of players leave s0 and a new bunch of players join. So far only C0rpze, bish0p and d@rus have been in there for a longer period.
nah, shame that i couldnt reactivate old [H], we would show u all how strong that s0 is with cln or without him. GL all BTW, XENO had the strongest lineup last season, and it was the strongest team in div2 for a last few years, but still it wasnt enough to win div2.
Raskal isnt a 40% of cln, he is a TOP player, no doubts about it.
GOA and FF arent the best teams in div2 atm, and i wouldnt say that they will even get to the playoffs.
There is no rules against the lack of fairplay or against lameness.
It's always been like that even in the time of Clanbase, there was always a merc clan created just for one season with a gathering of players who were too strong for div2 but not good enough to challenge anything in div1.
I can tell you those clans rarely win div2 in the long run. I was clanleader of such a clan for one season and in the end we failed miserably to win div2 even though everybody was "omg too easy for them".
EQ2L is a long lasting league that requires consistency and clans composed only of mercenaries are never steady enough because people come and go all the time throughout the season and the teamplay becomes a mess.
Now if s0 manages to become a real team and not just a bunch of "lost" players, it can be the rise of a new div1 clan to reckon with and it's a good thing.
Euroq2l is a great arena for team game expirience and we want to get some piece of it . The best way (my oponion) is try to play with all skills players and styles and best place is div2 . Yes now we have div1 squad and if we win div2 and safe that squad , we will join to div1 with good experience luggage . btw then we played goa match , 2 or 3 playing mates aks other s0 members if they want to replace them , its very nice and friendly . Also in future we can make 2 team's of s0 (div1/div2 ) . Will see ..
ok foen, i am not gonna reply and start a discussion, as it seems everybody has the right to their own opinion and lets keep it there. some like playing leagues they never can win and some dont, respect for both.
Cheimera please don't reply to this, just think about it. I still don't want to start it all over again
None of the current div1 clans haven't requested to be placed in to the div2. If they are really that misarable why haven't they ask? They have solid case that they haven't finished well and they would like to see how they do in div2, but instead clan like muffzors and before solaris and probably some other clans have asked to be in div1, just to play against the best clans. So I would say that most of the people rather compete on the highest level than take easy victories and i can't blame them.
duco it dident accure to you that all these players in s0 (9) actually plays there cause they want to play there and that they like to play with each other? And so what if a clan got 1milj members...
kolt: exactly my thoughts. If i'm inside a q2 clan, no matter what division i want to play EVERY euroq2l match and not sit on the bench. Bishop, cleaner is nothing to be blamed, he just asks and Edwin (like Wision already quoted) [15:14] <edwin> bishop said yes [15:14] <edwin> so, cleaner join [15:15] <edwin> nobody can say no to cleaner Edwin was probably thinking, ah only 7 active members and cleaner asking, making him think: clan is not full yet, finally we can win div2.
no one seems to care about the clans in div1, BoD for an example, the punshing bag the past years. How unfair aint that? same thing, but once again you only see the problem that suits yourselfs the best.
Now BoD have played 10 eq2l season and they have gathered like 80 points, and most of the points they got when there were no divisions or they had an polish group or division. So talk about fair.
Duco, maybe you haven't noticed my prev 2 comments, but s0 never won div2 and they only got ONE second place. So this tactic that you described is wrong.
really unfair on the 18x4 other players in division 2. i have alot to write but i really cant be bothered and i haven't been on the scene for too long to make suggestions.
I could defent Cleaner's choice of clan by not being fully aware of situation in div2. And according to our last season performance, s0 really needed a 'new guy' ... + s0 is a clan of his formemr (now inactive) clanmates Drag00n and czukierek.
Gotto run now ... I guess will add some more comments to this useless spam later in the evening.
And I agree with arch - can't go div1 untill a clan wins div2.
u cant forbid some1 recruiting new good div1 players if thats what they both want
the question is why rest of s0 players agree to sit on a bench while they could play in a league and have some fun playin (sitting on a bench is not fun)
and of course it will somehow ruin div2 games for rest of the clans
it seems my post got somehow removed? My conclusion: edwin has a lot of friend in q2 and asks almost everyone if they could join if they're good former div1 players. I just heard from clanmate careem, Edwin asked him to multiple times. So probably his job is being a recruiter
[15:11] <edwin> you are a lier [15:12] <edwin> dragoon is friend of czu and he said about join [15:12] <edwin> second season [15:12] <edwin> masteris ask me [15:12] <edwin> corpze said yes [15:12] <edwin> ok join [15:13] <edwin> amb is friend of bishop [15:13] <edwin> and he join [15:13] <edwin> alexj is our friend [15:13] <edwin> can he join? [15:13] <edwin> but qrwa leave [15:13] <edwin> so i ask to cheoimera [15:13] <edwin> wanna play with us? [15:13] <Duco> you have got many friends, maybe 30 why not add them all? [15:14] <edwin> cleaner ask me [15:14] <Duco> you have enough active players [15:14] <edwin> can i join in your clan? [15:14] <edwin> i ask to bisho [15:14] <Duco> why add 4-6 new players [15:14] <edwin> hey, look this [15:14] <Duco> when you already have enough active players [15:14] <edwin> bishop said yes [15:14] <edwin> so, cleaner join [15:14] <edwin> no more [15:15] <edwin> nobody can say no to cleaner [15:16] <Duco> ok well goodluck next season [15:16] <Duco> go rape other div2 clans with 250 - 50 [15:18] <Duco> you would have played your matches with: c0rpze, bishop, edwin, amb [15:18] <Duco> and you could still have win div2 with that team: c0rpze, bishop, edwin, amb [15:18] <Duco> you can't see [15:18] <Duco> even purri dislikes it 15:19] <edwin> stupid [15:19] <edwin> say me 1 thing [15:19] <edwin> why [15:19] <edwin> you dindt say something [15:19] <edwin> when xeno pick raskal [15:19] <edwin> tell me this [15:20] <Duco> raskal is maybe 40% of skill of cleaner... btw xeno is equal skilled to all other div2 clans [15:20] <edwin> they picked raskal and cheimera [15:20] <edwin> div1 players [15:20] <edwin> and you dindt say something [15:20] <Duco> cheimera is noob div1 player..can't compare him to cleaner [15:20] <edwin> so, go fuck yourserlf, i have exam today [15:20] <edwin> and im so nervous [15:21] <Duco> raskal is div1..he has good aim... cleaner is polish best player, has very good teamplay + overall considered as best quad player.
"<Duco> raskal is maybe 40% of skill of cleaner..."
Are you high on something? If not you are pretty clueless on (scandi) peoples skill levels..
With other things you wrote I have to agree. It's a small scene as it is and it's sad some clans leech all the players they can get their hands on. Focus should be getting max nro of clans out there and not make these "fortresses" where +50% of players merely sit on the bench every game. Also agreed with Purri that recruiting top-players to div2 clans just ruin the fun for many other div2 clans.
Saw Solaris mentioned down the comments also and yes, like Duco said we weren't exactly flying on div1 but the fact is we were ~always given the chance to go div2 but whenever possible we (I) chose div1 even knowing we'd get most likely hammered. Reason: We rather play vs div1 clans and loose than play div2 where most games are even more unequal. Personally I don't get any kicks from rapegames thus I avoid them at all costs...
Corpze is paying his enormous card debt... Cheimera is in for a cheap dose... Cleaner's family is held hostages by Albanian mafia... I am in s0 in exchange for the photos of me with my misteress kept away from my wife... AlexJ wants back the copies of some tax scheming documentation from the company he runs... [amb] was promissed a new transplant liver... Masteris is under protection in s0, either he would have to face the court for a double murder... edwin is realyl EVIL !
PS: recently he has been recieving information conserning the occupation of some Tarvainen family in Sweden. I could only guess who those poor people are, but edwin's turkish contacts in Sweden reported of positive results and they were already negotating the price for the "job".
You fail to see the problem, start thinking WHY would these div1 players even want to play in div2? Thats the question aint it? Maybe admins should ask the div1 players that have joined a div2 team why they have joined it, is it for just gettign the fun out of raping, is it because no clan in siv1 fits them, is it cause div1 sucks or whatever is the reason, and then take the problem from there and try to find an solution.
They might win this div easy now and move on to div1. I am ok with it @ Arch: they might use same tactics as last years: -some good players leave after winning div2 (cln back to 3m). -requesting admins to be div2 (again) because of this -after being in div2: recruiting again ex-div1 players. Assumable and predictable
Again to duug: I don't see the word 'finally' fit when they have one second place in a total q2 career.
They might win this div easy now and move on to div1. I am ok with it
Still it's not my style to reqruit top players only to win a league. S0 already had like 7 active players of which 4 or 5 are pretty equal and main team. I don't see why they should add any player at all to their squad. But if this is what Edwin wants, he should go ahead.
eon, you shouldn't involve Solaris. Solaris is and always was one of the worst div1 clans and had mostly equal matches in div2. They also didn't have any real topplayers and we're a all equal skilled players. Cleaner is commonly suggested as the best Polish q2 player for the last 3-4 years, the best well-known quadrunner againist top-div1 clans like hbq/wiz/play and even being in 3m often being the best of his team. I aggree on what purri says, with c0rpze, bishop, mastah and edwin s0 had a well balanced team. You have to aggree that Cleaner in s0 would be the same as Purri and Provi being added to GOA. Even b4 Cleaner was added s0 we're already favourites to win div2 as they have been in div2 playoffs for the last 2 season and already recruited some strong players.
Something is just wrong if Cleaner is allowed to play in div 2. I feel sorry for the other clans there to play a strong team like this in div 2. I would be a bit more forgiving if he actually would have joined one of the weaker teams to balance things out, but no, s0 should be one of the stronger teams in div2 even without him right?
come on guys u start it again, every season there is a very good clan with a div1 players in div2, exery time someone complain about it, and every time we have some suprise. Do u guys remember fe solaris ? check some old posts and games of that season, it was exacly the same, "no one can beat a solaris" "solaris is gonna with div2 easily" and more bullshit like that, what if in the next few weeks cln and co will not be able to play ? many things may happen? right? and then what ? we got another medium skill clan in div2 and then someone can beat them. Anyway wining a games in a group stage doesnt mean that the same will happen in playoffs.
This is not right: Admins create division based on previous years results AND their current squad, this is what Edwin did: -Euroq2l #11: s0 getting placed in div2 squad, after 2 rounds being put in div2 he recruits 2 former div1 players: czukierek.os and dragoon.os (faking as yayamoto and taylor at their first games). -s0 reaching finals in #Euroq2l #11 and #12 -Start of Euroq2l #13: edwin waits and his team gets in div #2 again. -After being placed in div2 he adds Cleaner who cannot find a div1 clan he likes.
So looking just from the s0 point of view, Edwin is a very good q2 manager because of 2 reasons: 1.- he makes sure his team is put in Div2 2.- after he's sure of div2, he starts to recruit former div1-players, because he know if Cleaner would be in his team b4 divisions we're made, they wouldn't be in div2. 3.-so edwin = king of q2 manager for the 9 players of his clan s0
From any other div2 - clan point of view: 1. Edwin is ruining q2scene div #2 by letting his team rape all other clans removing the fun of q2 by this kind of scores (239-64 on dm3, WTF and GOA isn't even worst div2 clan). If you think it's not true, just ask any random div2 clan. It's not cleaners fault he was allowed to join div2 by s0, it's Edwin who's great q2 clan manager skills is doing this for years now.
Conclusion: at s0 pov best q2 clan manager ever and from other div2 clan pov: best div2 ruining manager ever. ------- I woud like to propose a new rule for next season: 1. Former div1-Players can only be recruited to a div2 clan BEFORE the divisions are made to prevent too much skill difference and fun being ruined.
UPDATE: let me be clear, i do not have anything againist clan s0 or againist any of their players. In fact i really like playing with them the old s0-team: c0rpze, stayut, bishop and edwin. I've had a lot of playing matches with them. So it's nothing personal againist s0, just this recruiting behaviour is what i dislike.
fuck div1... all the clans except play wizards and HBQ can go to div2 instead, damn that would be a really interesting league! every point would count and more teams like 6-7 would be fighting for the win, now thats how i want q2 to be.
but its not about that, its not everything about Cleaner here either ! tho his contribution in s0 is huge ofc !
i'd say its more about the whole team, which plays perfectly, i wouldn't put only Cleaner in div1, here we got corpze, masteris, alexJ, biah .. those guys know how to play, so they can match with div1 clans easy !
my point is .. s0 guys are mature enough, to share they skills with div1 clans and i think everybody would agree here.
i bet muffzors,BoD, even rage, maq would lost, or would hardly won over the supreme s0 lineup
but groups are made, euroq2l season has already began so ..
now cleaner joined s0 cause there was no other clan he wanted to play with in div1, so you are saying he has to join a team where he doesent want to play or doesent even like the other players just because he has the div1 skill? Now tp is about playing with people you like to play with, since the only thing you can get out of q2 is fun.
Looks like a good game to me between too equal skilled div2 clans. s0: 8 active members on the server(only 5 best play): good to see that they're sportive enough to field a team that will rape their enemies with atleast 100% frag difference or almost 200 frags. I think s0 should finally be placed in div1 next season, where they belong, even if some players are added later.I think every1 will aggree that it will be more fun for everyone.
skill zero
biah
